Feb

Which Will Be Taller?

The Soleil Center and the RBC Plaza are currently under construction and will soon be Raleigh’s tallest two towers. Which will be taller? If you read the News & Observer’s articles (such as today’s "Triangle Skylines Evolve") you’ll believe a recurring misnomer that Soleil will be taller. The 41-story Soleil Center will be 480 feet tall and will contain hotel and condo floors. The RBC Plaza has a different structure. It will include retail, parking garage, office space, and residential. Its 32 floors will reach 538 feet tall, capped with a 23 foot spire. The difference is in the height of the floors, and hotels and residential traditionally have shorter floors.

The N&O story reads: "What other metropolis would put its tallest building – the 43-story Soleil Center…- in one of its deepest valleys." The word tallest implies sheer height, and the RBC Plaza wins by at least 58 feet. In fact the bulk of the building is going to be 12% taller than the Soleil Center, so it is incorrect to assert that we are "putting" our tallest building at Crabtree.

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Dawson Said:
February 25th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
While their argument may be flawed, its essence is still intact.

Why are they putting the Soleil Center at Crabtree? I have heard that it has something to do with bumping up the number of hotel rooms in the vicinity of RBC which would eventually allow Raleigh to attract premier events. This doesn’t seem to make a lot of monetary sense to me though.

Traffic is already a night mare at that intersection and most of Glenwood Avenue at this point.

Why didn’t this building go downtown?
Dana Said:
February 25th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Ahh! Good question. The first thing to remember is that the developers didn’t start with a tower and concept, then follow it with a site selection. Otherwise the “why don’t they put it downtown” question would be valid. It all started with acquisition of an old hotel in a prime, hot market.

Let’s go back to the late 90’s. At that point Crabtree was one of the most sought-after malls IN THE WORLD by retailers (see Renee Degross’ column after she returned from China). Crabtree is surrounded by a bunch of C-list hotels, and one of the finest Embassy Suites in the chain. As the NHL gracefully repeated to us, we don’t have enough nice hotels in this market. A no-brainer location for a nice hotel is across from a sought after mall. The need for a top level hotel near Crabtree is still overwhelming and unquestionable.

IIRC, the developers spotted the aging Sheraton hotel as an easy conversion. They would take every three rooms and convert them to 2 large rooms and brand it with Westin. After the deal was done (getting Westin on board was NOT easy), they discovered that the hotel was in HORRIBLE shape, and that a renovation would be too costly for the number of rooms yielded. Back to the drawing board.

Designing/constructing a new building is also costly. Market research also showed a dearth in top notch condos. If the condos could be supported with all of the services of a 4-star hotel, they would be easier to sell. Putting them on top of the hotel means that their view is not of the Crabtree roof, rather above the horizon (much easier to sell). The zoning worked out to allow up to 42 condos on the space, so they topped the building with 42 condos. The key is that they share the same elevator core with the 4-star hotel. If they were adjacent, then the services would be too hard to deliver.

Hence we have a 42 story building design. The idea is getting condos up where the views are fantastic and offering them 4-star hotel services. That the building is very tall has absolutely nothing to do with traffic or its possibility of a downtown development. The Crabtree area needs condos and a hotel. Those developments put traffic out there early in the morning and at night. With the recent expansion of Edwards Mill/Creedmoor, traffic impact will be minimal.

Don’t you think that the Crabtree Place (former Steak & Ale) project will cause more traffic problems?
http://tinyurl.com/22y6vt
Half of these units actually will have the view of a shopping center (none of the horizon), while the development’s retail space puts many more cars in the area.

The oddity with Soleil is that it is in an area prone to flooding about once every ten years. While it’s on stilts, the support from the land seems like it would be a problem. I’m going to trust the structural engineers on this one. The building will be anchored far beneath the slumping stream bed. As for what to do with residents when it floods? That’s an old problem with that property, and really isn’t ours to ponder.

What I would like is for the building’s 9th floor plaza area (on top of the parking garage), to bridge over Creedmoor to Crabtree and to Crabtree Place. The whole area could one day be a very walkable complex and no-brainer for a transit node.
CarnifeX Said:
February 25th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
I hate this dingleberry on the arse of Raleigh.
Ernest Said:
February 25th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
The whole Soleil Center debate has gotten VERY old. It is a shame that people cannot recognize the contribution of such building, for the area it is proposed. The developers demolished an eyesore and proposed a far more elegant, more innovative design, with the same amount of units allowed by the previous zoning. No additional traffic to talk about.

It is unfortunate that such a great looking building will be built on a flood plain, but given the frequency of the flooding, this is the least of the problems. Would it make it any better if we had ten 4-story buildings? I don’t think so. If flooding is the issue, then I assume the financial backers have been satisfied with the engineering solutions involved in this project. Not to mention that Soleil Center requires $0 incentives from the city, unlike other projects.

Back to the original question, I am also tired of hearing that we are putting the tallest building outside downtown. RBC Plaza will be the tallest structure, unless The Edison is increased in height. Let’s keep in mind that the hotel/condo component of The Edison will stand 38 floors tall and approximately 525ft-530ft above ground. Clearly a taller proposal. While Soleil Center will be 43 stories high, it is the feet that count more.

Don’t get me wrong, I wish we could have Soleil Center in downtown, and from what I know, the latter is in the future plans of Soleil Group, provided Soleil Center 1 and 2 become successful. Unlike Kane, Soleil Group is not as much committed to the whole Midtown thing. They are business people and as such they will follow the money. DT Raleigh has a great future, but not enough amenities yet to attract projects like Soleil Center. Compare downtown’s retail with Crabtree Valley’s and you will see why the latter is a hot area for development. Until we see some useful retail in DT Raleigh, we should feel lucky to get half of what has been proposed.
Dan R Said:
February 25th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Hopefully Soleil will improve the area around Crabtree as well as the mall itself-its kind of a cross between wannabe upscale, hick, and ghetto.
Dana Said:
February 25th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
CarnifeX,
You hate which one of the two? I think a dingleberry argument can be made for either building.

Dan,
I dunno. I think we have three really nice, realistic malls here. Every time I go to Triangle Town Center or Southpoint I ask myself,”Now WHAT is it here that is worth the drive???” For me ZGallerie and Orvis are worth the occasional drive to TTC. For Southpointe, I love Maggiano’s, like Nordstrom, and wish that Urban Outfitters had nicer looking clothes. Crabtree has some great stores like J Crew, Forever 21, and Harold’s.

Other than a couple of things I like once a year, I can find everything I need in a mall at Crabtree. If I lived near either of the other two I’d probably have the same homer perspective, respectively.

I like that each has its unique draws and hope that it stays that way. Say what you want about Crabtree area roads, but I think fighting 40 to get to Southpoint is THE PITS!!
CarnifeX Said:
February 25th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
I think Soleil is a dingleberry of the Raleigh Skyline. How would the RBC building be one?
Dana Said:
February 25th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
I think the birthday party hat on RBC is a little nutty.
chuck till Said:
February 25th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
The N&O can’t warm up to Soleil, but to this day the N&O also complains that the RBC Center wasn’t built in downtown. Get over it!

Atlanta has a downtown and a Buckhead. Crabtree is Raleigh’s Buckhead. Downtown Atlanta did not dry up just because some large buildings went up in Buckhead, and neither will downtown Raleigh dry up because of Soleil. Downtown advocates should quit catastrophizing.
CarnifeX Said:
February 26th, 2008 at 8:13 am
I hope we don’t use Atlanta as a model.

“and here on our grand tour of Atlanta we’ve got the airport and the Coca-Cola bottling factory…”

I like the moniker ‘birthday hat’, I think I’m gonna use that one.
Ron T Said:
February 26th, 2008 at 11:20 am
It is great to see everyone’s opinions. I have to agree that at first I had wished the Soleil building was going up downtown. Both because of its height and the fact that it is more modern than a lot of the buildings downtown. But the Crabtree area is going to keep growing and at least there will be an attractive building in the midst of it.

I do not understand why it is always taken as a given that the traffic around Crabtree is horrible. The parking lot at the mall itself is a mess, but I drive past the mall two times every day. And even at rush hour I never have to wait to get through a light (meaning that it goes from red to green to red without getting through). The fact that a lot of cars pass by in and of itself does not make it a traffic problem.
www.gogoraleigh.com» Blog Archive » Soleil Slated for 2010 Said:
April 30th, 2008 at 8:26 am
[…] date for the Soleil Center. Work is currently being done on the supporting foundation for the 480-foot residential and hotel tower. addthis_url = ‘http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gogoraleigh.com%2F2008%2F04%2F30%2Fsoleil-slated-for-2010%2F’; […]